EDHS Contemporary World Affairs

DerChancellorJake · Guru

Some Fear Bush Administration Could Become Target in 9/11 Trial

alison abuhamad · Senior Member

torture should never be used period its completly wrong and inhuman and most of the accused are inocent to begin with

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

no not really. It may depend wether my street is lined with IED's or not. I'll gladly let the U.S. torture insurgents that could most likely have vital information. Torture is wishy-washy, its bad but at the same time the U.S. will be a safer place.

DerChancellorJake · Guru

alison abuhamad wrote:

torture should never be used period its completly wrong and inhuman and most of the accused are inocent to begin with

Uh no i do not believe most of the accused are innocent to begin with. They did something to get arrested and they got captured in a manner that warrants them being the enemy (i.e. captured while firing on US soldiers). Obviously he is not innocent, and if he was with al-Queda or the Taliban, he may have important information to stop and prevent a terrorist attack on the US or anywhere else. And you're saying that you would rather have 1 hajji sit in a jail cell while a terrorist attack kills 1,000s of Americans, or would you rather extract that information from him (without killing him) to save 1,000s of lives without even needing to kill the terrorist? I don't see how needlessly allowing 1,000s to die just to let the hajji feel comfortable in his captivement is worth anything, especially when he was probably trying to kill soldiers or civilians when he was caught, and we turn around and be nice to him for it.

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

DerChancellorJake wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

torture should never be used period its completly wrong and inhuman and most of the accused are inocent to begin with

Uh no i do not believe most of the accused are innocent to begin with. They did something to get arrested and they got captured in a manner that warrants them being the enemy (i.e. captured while firing on US soldiers). Obviously he is not innocent, and if he was with al-Queda or the Taliban, he may have important information to stop and prevent a terrorist attack on the US or anywhere else. And you're saying that you would rather have 1 hajji sit in a jail cell while a terrorist attack kills 1,000s of Americans, or would you rather extract that information from him (without killing him) to save 1,000s of lives without even needing to kill the terrorist? I don't see how needlessly allowing 1,000s to die just to let the hajji feel comfortable in his captivement is worth anything, especially when he was probably trying to kill soldiers or civilians when he was caught, and we turn around and be nice to him for it.

True, not to mention the insurgents aren't real soldiers. So there is absolutely no "parlay". They are treated as insurgents, which they are. They will wave at your convoy at day, and will be shooting at it in the night. They have absolutely zero back bone because they shoot and skoot. They have never fought the good fight and most likely never will. I would rather have them rot in a cell then me fearing to go to the grocery store and thinking in the back of my mind that I could be blown up. Not to mention their religion promotes such behavior. This is a threat to National Security and as any threat, it must be eliminated.

DerChancellorJake · Guru

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

DerChancellorJake wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

torture should never be used period its completly wrong and inhuman and most of the accused are inocent to begin with

Uh no i do not believe most of the accused are innocent to begin with. They did something to get arrested and they got captured in a manner that warrants them being the enemy (i.e. captured while firing on US soldiers). Obviously he is not innocent, and if he was with al-Queda or the Taliban, he may have important information to stop and prevent a terrorist attack on the US or anywhere else. And you're saying that you would rather have 1 hajji sit in a jail cell while a terrorist attack kills 1,000s of Americans, or would you rather extract that information from him (without killing him) to save 1,000s of lives without even needing to kill the terrorist? I don't see how needlessly allowing 1,000s to die just to let the hajji feel comfortable in his captivement is worth anything, especially when he was probably trying to kill soldiers or civilians when he was caught, and we turn around and be nice to him for it.

True, not to mention the insurgents aren't real soldiers. So there is absolutely no "parlay". They are treated as insurgents, which they are. They will wave at your convoy at day, and will be shooting at it in the night. They have absolutely zero back bone because they shoot and skoot. They have never fought the good fight and most likely never will. I would rather have them rot in a cell then me fearing to go to the grocery store and thinking in the back of my mind that I could be blown up. Not to mention their religion promotes such behavior. This is a threat to National Security and as any threat, it must be eliminated.

True. I dont care what country you are from or how humane it may be, if you contain information that compromises our national security, you will tell us, one way or another. And i dont care how much pain the person has to go through either. I just see it as part of his punishment for being foolish enough to try and plot an attack against the United States of America.

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

DerChancellorJake wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

DerChancellorJake wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

torture should never be used period its completly wrong and inhuman and most of the accused are inocent to begin with

Uh no i do not believe most of the accused are innocent to begin with. They did something to get arrested and they got captured in a manner that warrants them being the enemy (i.e. captured while firing on US soldiers). Obviously he is not innocent, and if he was with al-Queda or the Taliban, he may have important information to stop and prevent a terrorist attack on the US or anywhere else. And you're saying that you would rather have 1 hajji sit in a jail cell while a terrorist attack kills 1,000s of Americans, or would you rather extract that information from him (without killing him) to save 1,000s of lives without even needing to kill the terrorist? I don't see how needlessly allowing 1,000s to die just to let the hajji feel comfortable in his captivement is worth anything, especially when he was probably trying to kill soldiers or civilians when he was caught, and we turn around and be nice to him for it.

True, not to mention the insurgents aren't real soldiers. So there is absolutely no "parlay". They are treated as insurgents, which they are. They will wave at your convoy at day, and will be shooting at it in the night. They have absolutely zero back bone because they shoot and skoot. They have never fought the good fight and most likely never will. I would rather have them rot in a cell then me fearing to go to the grocery store and thinking in the back of my mind that I could be blown up. Not to mention their religion promotes such behavior. This is a threat to National Security and as any threat, it must be eliminated.

True. I dont care what country you are from or how humane it may be, if you contain information that compromises our national security, you will tell us, one way or another. And i dont care how much pain the person has to go through either. I just see it as part of his punishment for being foolish enough to try and plot an attack against the United States of America.

God Bless America!

artferrand · Senior Member

torturing its not ok unless its extremely necessary(like this case).

veronica_veracious · Veteran Member

The question is so incredibly biased. By letting torture be legal it lowers american standards of having a better human rights record than other countries. Right to a fair trial? Sound familiar? If the US tortures than who's to say that POW's shouldn't be tortured in other countries?

alison abuhamad · Senior Member

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

veronica_veracious wrote:

The question is so incredibly biased. By letting torture be legal it lowers american standards of having a better human rights record than other countries. Right to a fair trial? Sound familiar? If the US tortures than who's to say that POW's shouldn't be tortured in other countries?

In a way your right about the standards but, these people are by no means americans. I am fully against americans being tortured. Now there is a code of conduct for real soldiers that happened to be captured. Insurgents are not soldiers therefore they get zero rights. By the way our POW's have always been tortured. McCain was shot down over vietnam and none the less tortured. He is a true american soldier, he was even to be released because he was a power man's son. But you know what he did? He stayed. That is a true America right there.

Disclaimer: This is not a personal attack, merely my side of the story is presented.

alison abuhamad · Senior Member

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

veronica_veracious wrote:

The question is so incredibly biased. By letting torture be legal it lowers american standards of having a better human rights record than other countries. Right to a fair trial? Sound familiar? If the US tortures than who's to say that POW's shouldn't be tortured in other countries?

In a way your right about the standards but, these people are by no means americans. I am fully against americans being tortured. Now there is a code of conduct for real soldiers that happened to be captured. Insurgents are not soldiers therefore they get zero rights. By the way our POW's have always been tortured. McCain was shot down over vietnam and none the less tortured. He is a true american soldier, he was even to be released because he was a power man's son. But you know what he did? He stayed. That is a true America right there.
Disclaimer: This is not a personal attack, merely my side of the story is presented.

if your againts the toture of americans then are you ok with the toture of non americans?

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

alison abuhamad wrote:

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

The problem is just that. We are human. We have many many faults. I must agree, torture is bad but necessary in this case. And it depends whether my neighborhood is plagued with violence or not.

alison abuhamad · Senior Member

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

The problem is just that. We are human. We have many many faults. I must agree, torture is bad but necessary in this case. And it depends whether my neighborhood is plagued with violence or not.

but how do you even know this person is even telling the truth because you can get anyone to admit to anything under toture

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

The problem is just that. We are human. We have many many faults. I must agree, torture is bad but necessary in this case. And it depends whether my neighborhood is plagued with violence or not.

but how do you even know this person is even telling the truth because you can get anyone to admit to anything under toture

That may be true but, it doesn't hurt to try.

alison abuhamad · Senior Member

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

The problem is just that. We are human. We have many many faults. I must agree, torture is bad but necessary in this case. And it depends whether my neighborhood is plagued with violence or not.

but how do you even know this person is even telling the truth because you can get anyone to admit to anything under toture

That may be true but, it doesn't hurt to try.

it does hurt because then your putting inocent people to death or prison for a crime they didnt commit

Mdparamo78 · Senior Member

Of course some people say torture should be allowed. Torture is immoral just like sex on TV, Gay Marriage, Abortion, the Death Penalty, And the use of an invasion in war. Which are all practiced in America. Torture should not be allowed.

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

The problem is just that. We are human. We have many many faults. I must agree, torture is bad but necessary in this case. And it depends whether my neighborhood is plagued with violence or not.

but how do you even know this person is even telling the truth because you can get anyone to admit to anything under toture

That may be true but, it doesn't hurt to try.

it does hurt because then your putting inocent people to death or prison for a crime they didnt commit

whoa, aren't we talking about torture? I don't innocent people to die. If the one is suspected of helping a terrorist cell, then by all means get ALL the information out of 'em. I don't mean pulling random people off the street and torturing them.

alison abuhamad · Senior Member

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

The problem is just that. We are human. We have many many faults. I must agree, torture is bad but necessary in this case. And it depends whether my neighborhood is plagued with violence or not.

but how do you even know this person is even telling the truth because you can get anyone to admit to anything under toture

That may be true but, it doesn't hurt to try.

it does hurt because then your putting inocent people to death or prison for a crime they didnt commit

whoa, aren't we talking about torture? I don't innocent people to die. If the one is suspected of helping a terrorist cell, then by all means get ALL the information out of 'em. I don't mean pulling random people off the street and torturing them.

well thats what end up happening and alot of them die during these torture practices and durning these waterboarding and stuff like that they have a docter to revive them...thats kinda sickening. and once again you can get anyone to say anything throught toture so torture is also not effective.

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

Mdparamo78 wrote:

Of course some people say torture should be allowed. Torture is immoral just like sex on TV, Gay Marriage, Abortion, the Death Penalty, And the use of an invasion in war. Which are all practiced in America. Torture should not be allowed.

Torture isn't allowed in the U.S., but it is everywhere else we occupy.

alison abuhamad · Senior Member

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

Mdparamo78 wrote:

Of course some people say torture should be allowed. Torture is immoral just like sex on TV, Gay Marriage, Abortion, the Death Penalty, And the use of an invasion in war. Which are all practiced in America. Torture should not be allowed.

Torture isn't allowed in the U.S., but it is everywhere else we occupy.

the U.S. uses torture also

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

and you can gett anyone to admit to anything just to get the tourture to stop so it doesnt even work good and what are we still stuck in the middle ages, you would think were above this in humman practice.

-- Edited by alison abuhamad on Tuesday 17th of November 2009 12:44:33 AM

The problem is just that. We are human. We have many many faults. I must agree, torture is bad but necessary in this case. And it depends whether my neighborhood is plagued with violence or not.

but how do you even know this person is even telling the truth because you can get anyone to admit to anything under toture

That may be true but, it doesn't hurt to try.

it does hurt because then your putting inocent people to death or prison for a crime they didnt commit

whoa, aren't we talking about torture? I don't innocent people to die. If the one is suspected of helping a terrorist cell, then by all means get ALL the information out of 'em. I don't mean pulling random people off the street and torturing them.

well thats what end up happening and alot of them die during these torture practices and durning these waterboarding and stuff like that they have a docter to revive them...thats kinda sickening. and once again you can get anyone to say anything throught toture so torture is also not effective.

Well the doc i there so they don't, which is the goal because, dead men don't talk. Torture is effective but what is even more is the fear of being tortured. Yes there is such thing, and its works. Now if someone was trying to brand me, yea I would talk real fast.

nancymclaren · Senior Member

Is it just me or did anyone else learn that "cruel and unusual punishment" can not be inflicted on you?

nancymclaren · Senior Member

DerChancellorJake wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

DerChancellorJake wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

torture should never be used period its completly wrong and inhuman and most of the accused are inocent to begin with

Uh no i do not believe most of the accused are innocent to begin with. They did something to get arrested and they got captured in a manner that warrants them being the enemy (i.e. captured while firing on US soldiers). Obviously he is not innocent, and if he was with al-Queda or the Taliban, he may have important information to stop and prevent a terrorist attack on the US or anywhere else. And you're saying that you would rather have 1 hajji sit in a jail cell while a terrorist attack kills 1,000s of Americans, or would you rather extract that information from him (without killing him) to save 1,000s of lives without even needing to kill the terrorist? I don't see how needlessly allowing 1,000s to die just to let the hajji feel comfortable in his captivement is worth anything, especially when he was probably trying to kill soldiers or civilians when he was caught, and we turn around and be nice to him for it.

True, not to mention the insurgents aren't real soldiers. So there is absolutely no "parlay". They are treated as insurgents, which they are. They will wave at your convoy at day, and will be shooting at it in the night. They have absolutely zero back bone because they shoot and skoot. They have never fought the good fight and most likely never will. I would rather have them rot in a cell then me fearing to go to the grocery store and thinking in the back of my mind that I could be blown up. Not to mention their religion promotes such behavior. This is a threat to National Security and as any threat, it must be eliminated.

True. I dont care what country you are from or how humane it may be, if you contain information that compromises our national security, you will tell us, one way or another. And i dont care how much pain the person has to go through either. I just see it as part of his punishment for being foolish enough to try and plot an attack against the United States of America.

If I was fighting for something, you can torture me but I'm not going to give someone or something up. Torture to me is useless. If someone is going to torture you, then they will probably end up killing you in the end, so why give up the information?

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

alison abuhamad wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

Mdparamo78 wrote:

Of course some people say torture should be allowed. Torture is immoral just like sex on TV, Gay Marriage, Abortion, the Death Penalty, And the use of an invasion in war. Which are all practiced in America. Torture should not be allowed.

Torture isn't allowed in the U.S., but it is everywhere else we occupy.

the U.S. uses torture also

yes but not in the United States itself. It is prohibited.

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

nancymclaren wrote:

Is it just me or did anyone else learn that "cruel and unusual punishment" can not be inflicted on you?

Yes but only if your are in the United States. At Gitmo its a different story all together.

Kommandant_Karl · Guru

nancymclaren wrote:

DerChancellorJake wrote:

Kommandant_Karl wrote:

DerChancellorJake wrote:

alison abuhamad wrote:

torture should never be used period its completly wrong and inhuman and most of the accused are inocent to begin with

Uh no i do not believe most of the accused are innocent to begin with. They did something to get arrested and they got captured in a manner that warrants them being the enemy (i.e. captured while firing on US soldiers). Obviously he is not innocent, and if he was with al-Queda or the Taliban, he may have important information to stop and prevent a terrorist attack on the US or anywhere else. And you're saying that you would rather have 1 hajji sit in a jail cell while a terrorist attack kills 1,000s of Americans, or would you rather extract that information from him (without killing him) to save 1,000s of lives without even needing to kill the terrorist? I don't see how needlessly allowing 1,000s to die just to let the hajji feel comfortable in his captivement is worth anything, especially when he was probably trying to kill soldiers or civilians when he was caught, and we turn around and be nice to him for it.

True, not to mention the insurgents aren't real soldiers. So there is absolutely no "parlay". They are treated as insurgents, which they are. They will wave at your convoy at day, and will be shooting at it in the night. They have absolutely zero back bone because they shoot and skoot. They have never fought the good fight and most likely never will. I would rather have them rot in a cell then me fearing to go to the grocery store and thinking in the back of my mind that I could be blown up. Not to mention their religion promotes such behavior. This is a threat to National Security and as any threat, it must be eliminated.

True. I dont care what country you are from or how humane it may be, if you contain information that compromises our national security, you will tell us, one way or another. And i dont care how much pain the person has to go through either. I just see it as part of his punishment for being foolish enough to try and plot an attack against the United States of America.

If I was fighting for something, you can torture me but I'm not going to give someone or something up. Torture to me is useless. If someone is going to torture you, then they will probably end up killing you in the end, so why give up the information?

Pain is what makes people talk, and believe me, with pain anyone will talk; me, you and almost everyone else. It may be useless to you but the government doesn't think so. Now in a way you are correct, there are the few that will not say a word. But for the most of us, we do talk, even if the torture hasn't even started yet.