EDHS Contemporary World Affairs

Bam · Senior Member

It's time for Obama to face the Middle East

geriatric1991 · Senior Member

The united states should mind its own business and stop trying to make everywhere be like america. it simply wont work.

ich_binJason · Senior Member

geriatric1991 wrote:

The united states should mind its own business and stop trying to make everywhere be like america. it simply wont work.

yeah we should totally mind our own business. When we're the mediators for this topic. The US Road Map to peace...

Palestine's issue is the Hamas-Fatah conflict. get that in your heads.

Bonemail-(Christophe K) · Senior Member

Commerce with all nations, alliances with none, should be our motto. -Thomas Jefferson

geriatric1991 · Senior Member

exactly, we are the mediators, that is the problem. we should not be involved in things like this

ich_binJason · Senior Member

I get it, you lived in another country, heard their people talk about how much they hate America and how they involve themselves. whatever. but that point here is, Israel will not discuss Palestine as long as Hamas is at the table. we're not trying to make everything like America. I don't even know where you can apply that idea to this. I don't get why you brought that point up.

-Palestine wants Gaza Strip+West Bank
-West Bank is run by Fatah-controlled internationally backed Mahmoud Abbas
-Gaza Strip run by Hamas, militant organization
-Palestine desperately wants Jerusalem as its capital, as does Israel
-Israel's next prime minister is even more anti-peace with Palestine than Olmert was.
-Palestine wants Israel to stop building homes in the West Bank, Netanyahu completely supports it.
So if the USA pulls out of negotiations, kiss the two state solution good bye. Who's going to step in?
-The European Union (yeah not with the Czechs as the leaders this year), United Nations? yeah thats a joke. slaps on the wrist don't do anything. The Arab League? That'd be tough considering half of them don't recognize Israel and Syria still whining about the Golan Heights. And really don't say Israel and Palestine should negoiate this by themselves. Thats like telling Serbians and Croatians to love each other

The USA is trying to help Palestine get a country. I'm assuming you absolutely don't want that because you want America to "mind its own business." Israel is tough to negotiate with but we are their number one supporter and number one influencer. We're trying to convince to work peace out to help Palestine get a country. Even Palestine and the Arab League are looking forward to more leadership from the USA to help negotiate this more because of our influence on Israel.

so yes, we need to involve ourselves with this.

KW00D · Senior Member

ich_binJason wrote:

I get it, you lived in another country, heard their people talk about how much they hate America and how they involve themselves. whatever. but that point here is, Israel will not discuss Palestine as long as Hamas is at the table. we're not trying to make everything like America. I don't even know where you can apply that idea to this. I don't get why you brought that point up.

-Palestine wants Gaza Strip+West Bank
-West Bank is run by Fatah-controlled internationally backed Mahmoud Abbas
-Gaza Strip run by Hamas, militant organization
-Palestine desperately wants Jerusalem as its capital, as does Israel
-Israel's next prime minister is even more anti-peace with Palestine than Olmert was.
-Palestine wants Israel to stop building homes in the West Bank, Netanyahu completely supports it.
So if the USA pulls out of negotiations, kiss the two state solution good bye. Who's going to step in?
-The European Union (yeah not with the Czechs as the leaders this year), United Nations? yeah thats a joke. slaps on the wrist don't do anything. The Arab League? That'd be tough considering half of them don't recognize Israel and Syria still whining about the Golan Heights. And really don't say Israel and Palestine should negoiate this by themselves. Thats like telling Serbians and Croatians to love each other

The USA is trying to help Palestine get a country. I'm assuming you absolutely don't want that because you want America to "mind its own business." Israel is tough to negotiate with but we are their number one supporter and number one influencer. We're trying to convince to work peace out to help Palestine get a country. Even Palestine and the Arab League are looking forward to more leadership from the USA to help negotiate this more because of our influence on Israel.

so yes, we need to involve ourselves with this.

I definitely agree with Jason. We need to use our influence on Israel to help Palestine become a country. We're the mediators BECAUSE we have so much influence.

Bonemail-(Christophe K) · Senior Member

Honestly I once again find myself agreeing with Jamie. You keep acting like diplomacy will lead to peace in the middle east. This goes beyond just national borders and into religion and religion does not waver. If israel was muslim do you think we would be having this problem. I hope you said NO!

Why is it that we feel someone needs to fiddle with the rest of the world cause if it's not us then it's EU. If it's not EU then it's go to be the AL. Really how I feel is Israel wins the fight for it's indepence then they have our recognition as a nation. Trade follows and we allow them and their neighbors to figure things out and if that means Israel has to fight (and most likely beat) it's nieghbors to provide for it's security then that is a privledge that all nations have.

ich_binJason · Senior Member

since when did you become this guy?
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
Grand_Ayatollah_Ali_Khamenei,.jpg

-- Edited by ich_binJason on Saturday 21st of March 2009 09:20:50 PM

Bonemail-(Christophe K) · Senior Member

I could give you a more specific answer if I knew who he was.

geriatric1991 · Senior Member

i had that mindset far before i ever even thought about living in germany. of course the US tries to make other countries like america. Look Iraq. we tried to make it a democracy. you have to let the people of the country make the decisions. if they want to over throw the government, they should do so, themselves, like the french revolution or something. no one helped the french citizens and look how it has turned out. france is a stable democracy. democracy wont work for every culture. the US government has yet to learn that

ich_binJason · Senior Member

geriatric1991 wrote:

i had that mindset far before i ever even thought about living in germany. of course the US tries to make other countries like america. Look Iraq. we tried to make it a democracy. you have to let the people of the country make the decisions. if they want to over throw the government, they should do so, themselves, like the french revolution or something. no one helped the french citizens and look how it has turned out. france is a stable democracy. democracy wont work for every culture. the US government has yet to learn that

yeah Palestine has their own democracy and elected Mahmoud Abbas as their president. so how are we making that like America? because they have had the Palestinian Liberation Organization long before the Palestinian Authority. which again has absolutely nothing to do with us. so again I ask, where are we trying to make Palestine like America? we're trying to help them get a country. French revolution, no offense but that is a terrible example. The Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen was heavily influenced by the American Revolution and it was even proposed by the French General in the American Revolution the Marquis de Lafayette. so France did not just come up with this idea on their own. Also have you heard about those thousands of decapitated heads from Reign of Terror. France also had an emperor in the Napoleon. Hmnn had a deposed king reinstated. It wasn't until the 20th century that French Democracy stood strong. So to say France had a stable democracy as soon as they had a revolution is complete nonsense. Also does France have 3 ethnic groups totally divided and guided by religion (Kurds, Shiites, Sunni)? Did France recently have a dictator who opressed the other races who weren't his (Shiites) and exterminated an ethnic group (Kurds)? The thing about coup d'état's these days, we have established relations with the people in power. you don't openly support a rebellion, thats political and international suicide. And you seriously can't judge's Iraq's democracy until at least 100 from nows, you really can't. do we have a Prime Minister in America? no. oh hey he's the leader of Iraq. That's so unfair to judge Iraq's democracy, thats like Americans being asked to judge how good of a President, Obama is two months into his term. do we support non-democracies. of course. ever hear of Saudi Arabia?

Bonemail-(Christophe K) · Senior Member

First off the French Rev. is a much better example then the American Rev. cause they also just like the palestinians had to deal with external powers trying to take their land. Austria and Prussia invading from the north and the British attacking from the south. Not to mention all the internal unrest that the revolution had to deal with. As horrible as the great terror was there was a key quote from it's creator Maximilien Robespierre: "Terror without virtue is disastrous but virtue without terror is powerless." Simply put to create a society of virtues they must respect the terrors of no virtue.

France also had to deal with the catholic church and went under the proccess of dechristianisation where they destroyed many churches and looted their money and items. They created a new calender with 12 months 3 weeks per month 10 days a week. This was to make it very hard for loyal christians to remember when sunday was. So although they don't have to deal with three religions the one they did have to deal with was just as powerful if not much much more and so they did away with it altogether. In fact Robespierre sponsored a cult called "The cult of the supreme being" where they worshiped the goddess of reason.

You are right though the American's did inspire the French but they did so by bankrupting France when France sent us help. That money could have feed and given shelter to 7 million french civilians for a year. The cost of bread was deregulated allowing for the shortage of weat to go up and soon makeing one loaf of bread a months salary. This lead to riots, robberies of bakers, and mob lynchings of people accused of storing food.

Napolean was an emperor of France we all know that but he also helped unify France at a point where it's government was on shaking legs. He made the practice of canning food a standard to help supply his troops. He gave the French pride and helped rebuild it's economy. Upon Napoleon's return from exile he stood infront of his old soldiers and said they could shoot him if they did not want him back but instead they ran to him and reinstalled him. He was a emperor but he was loved by many of the French because he had made them into a power to reckon with again.

Back to the main point though: I believe it would be better for us to start allowing people in their native countries to make their own decisions. I'm talking about using making the U.S. a power through economic sanctions and smart diplomacy rather then the gorilla with an M16 and a hummer in the room. I love my military don't get me wrong and when we feel the need to defend ourselves then so be it. I just am tired of the U.S. spilling it's blood over ideology. It's been happening all through out history so it's about time it wasn't the blood of my countrymen.

I don't see how anyone would have a problem with just ending this police the world crap we ahve been doing. My entire history class last year seemed all for it but they all yelled at me about being pro-life as well :P

geriatric1991 · Senior Member

well i didnt ever say we were trying to make a democracy of palestine but we do tend to do that all over the world and this isnt the first time. some examples are the cold war where the US was competing with communism, and vietnam which was also against communism and trying to make vietnam a democracy. and of course you are right when you said we dont have a prime minister like we installed in iraq. so maybe it would have pleased you if i said we are trying to make the rest of the world like the west. that might have been more appropriate, thanks for the correction.

and i also never said that france had a stable democracy right after the revolution, of course it took a while to stabilize.

and about supporting saudi arabia, you must be aware of why the US and saudi arabia are allied... oil of course, that is why we even have a presence in the middle east. we want to protect our relationship with the seller and saudi arabia wants to protect its relationship with its biggest customer. make no mistake that if saudi arabia's main product was chop sticks or something the US didnt care about, the US-Saudi bond would be a completely different story.

my point is that i am tired of the US being the world police or peace keeper or whatever you want to call it, it is not out business and its not worth dying for. yes there may be tyrants and harsh dictators but in the end justice and what is right always wins out. it always has. some examples of that is the roman empire (constantly conquering minor villages and such) the american revolution (freedom of the colonies) french revolution (freedom of the tyrannical monarchy) the fall of nazi germany (no explanation necessary) the peace ful independence of india, the fall of communist russia, the apartheid lifted from south africa, the "modified" communist china. the list is infinite. although not every instance was peaceful, a vast majority were without war or invasions or killings.

time is on justices side, so we dont have to be.

-- Edited by geriatric1991 on Wednesday 25th of March 2009 02:22:39 AM

Bonemail-(Christophe K) · Senior Member

geriatric1991 wrote:

time is on justices side, so we dont have to be.

-- Edited by geriatric1991 on Wednesday 25th of March 2009 02:22:39 AM

I need to remember that. Very good quote and if you made it up +1 up

ich_binJason · Senior Member

Bonemail-(Christophe K) wrote:

First off the French Rev. is a much better example then the American Rev. cause they also just like the palestinians had to deal with external powers trying to take their land. Austria and Prussia invading from the north and the British attacking from the south. Not to mention all the internal unrest that the revolution had to deal with. As horrible as the great terror was there was a key quote from it's creator Maximilien Robespierre: "Terror without virtue is disastrous but virtue without terror is powerless." Simply put to create a society of virtues they must respect the terrors of no virtue.

France also had to deal with the catholic church and went under the proccess of dechristianisation where they destroyed many churches and looted their money and items. They created a new calender with 12 months 3 weeks per month 10 days a week. This was to make it very hard for loyal christians to remember when sunday was. So although they don't have to deal with three religions the one they did have to deal with was just as powerful if not much much more and so they did away with it altogether. In fact Robespierre sponsored a cult called "The cult of the supreme being" where they worshiped the goddess of reason.

You are right though the American's did inspire the French but they did so by bankrupting France when France sent us help. That money could have feed and given shelter to 7 million french civilians for a year. The cost of bread was deregulated allowing for the shortage of weat to go up and soon makeing one loaf of bread a months salary. This lead to riots, robberies of bakers, and mob lynchings of people accused of storing food.

Napolean was an emperor of France we all know that but he also helped unify France at a point where it's government was on shaking legs. He made the practice of canning food a standard to help supply his troops. He gave the French pride and helped rebuild it's economy. Upon Napoleon's return from exile he stood infront of his old soldiers and said they could shoot him if they did not want him back but instead they ran to him and reinstalled him. He was a emperor but he was loved by many of the French because he had made them into a power to reckon with again.

Back to the main point though: I believe it would be better for us to start allowing people in their native countries to make their own decisions. I'm talking about using making the U.S. a power through economic sanctions and smart diplomacy rather then the gorilla with an M16 and a hummer in the room. I love my military don't get me wrong and when we feel the need to defend ourselves then so be it. I just am tired of the U.S. spilling it's blood over ideology. It's been happening all through out history so it's about time it wasn't the blood of my countrymen.

I don't see how anyone would have a problem with just ending this police the world crap we ahve been doing. My entire history class last year seemed all for it but they all yelled at me about being pro-life as well :P

I agree with you on some points but on some I don't. First I saw you walking by Valencia today haha, no idea why I brought that up. 2nd, How can you compare the American Democracy to the American revolution? The two go together. Heck wouldn't Rome be a decent example pre-Pax Romana. They don't compare against each other. Nobodies trying to take Palestinian land (West Bank+Gaza Strip) its just Israel being reluctant to hand it over. As for French feeding its people, of course it would've helped, but the First and Second Estate did not care for the Third Estate. You could argue Napoleon did help establish a more secure economy and I would not argue that, but the burden of Taxes was high and fell mostly upon the poor and Napoleon's constant warfare never let the economy develop surpluses.

I'm ok with America allowing countries to allow native people make their own decisions. If Ecuador wants to redistribute efficient farm lands to indigineous Indians who don't know a thing about farming, good for them. If Russia wants to practice military drills with Venezuela, good for them. Economic sanctions haven't exactly done much with Iran so far. They're not backing down from their nuclear ambition. but hey if a country screws with a NATO country, its our obligation to protect them. If North Korea dares to end their armistice with South Korea, we have 45,000 troops waiting to support South Korea. Its just you seriously can not expect Israel and Palestine to talk to each other without help. This is where I don't agree with isolationism and it is our issue of concern. You can't put two Siamese Fighting Fish in the same tank and you can't expect Syria-Lebanon, Serbia-Croata to respect each other automatically diplomatically. You can help engage them for the greater good, which is what we're doing with Israel-Palestine. We're still a leader in this world, a huge influencer, countries still admire us. and seriously you can go on foreve talking about how countries hate how we get involved into other countries issues, but millions of citizens worldwide would equally be pissed off if we were isolationist and simply ignored everything by saying its not our problem. India having evidence of Pakistani terrorists and Pakistan not releasing info on them, could you imagine us saying its just your issue, you go solve it. even though your two countries have been on the edge of war and hate each other. Theres a two-edged sword to helping out the world but I'll take satisfaction in knowing that we're helping a country out.

I honestly do not care if you are pro life or not, its not like I all of sudden forgot any opinion you had from Comparative World Religions and think you're a student I've never ever heard speak before.

ich_binJason · Senior Member

geriatric1991 wrote:

well i didnt ever say we were trying to make a democracy of palestine but we do tend to do that all over the world and this isnt the first time. some examples are the cold war where the US was competing with communism, and vietnam which was also against communism and trying to make vietnam a democracy. and of course you are right when you said we dont have a prime minister like we installed in iraq. so maybe it would have pleased you if i said we are trying to make the rest of the world like the west. that might have been more appropriate, thanks for the correction.

and i also never said that france had a stable democracy right after the revolution, of course it took a while to stabilize.

and about supporting saudi arabia, you must be aware of why the US and saudi arabia are allied... oil of course, that is why we even have a presence in the middle east. we want to protect our relationship with the seller and saudi arabia wants to protect its relationship with its biggest customer. make no mistake that if saudi arabia's main product was chop sticks or something the US didnt care about, the US-Saudi bond would be a completely different story.

my point is that i am tired of the US being the world police or peace keeper or whatever you want to call it, it is not out business and its not worth dying for. yes there may be tyrants and harsh dictators but in the end justice and what is right always wins out. it always has. some examples of that is the roman empire (constantly conquering minor villages and such) the american revolution (freedom of the colonies) french revolution (freedom of the tyrannical monarchy) the fall of nazi germany (no explanation necessary) the peace ful independence of india, the fall of communist russia, the apartheid lifted from south africa, the "modified" communist china. the list is infinite. although not every instance was peaceful, a vast majority were without war or invasions or killings.

time is on justices side, so we dont have to be.

-- Edited by geriatric1991 on Wednesday 25th of March 2009 02:22:39 AM

yeah we didn't install Al Maliki in Iraq. he was democratically elected as much as you wish to deny this fact. Shiite Majority in Iraq, elected a Shiite after being brutally opressed by a Sunni. hmnn did not foresee that. We installed Reza Shah Pahlavi in Iran, no denying that. We're not facing the threat of communism anymore, if anything, its leftist republics, but we're not funding contras to overthrow the government are we? In those days we faced mutually assured destruction and the threat of the Soviet Union dropping the nuclear bomb, sorry if the USA took steps to make sure our enemy didn't get stronger.

for the French comment, you made it sound like democracy has completely failed in Iraq, when in reality, you can't judge that. Look it took France a while to get it right.

No duh on the reasons for our relationship with Saudi Arabia. However in your previous post you stated democracies don't work in every country, and we don't know that. of course, its the situation is working fine there. Is Cuba necessarily a democracy? North Korea? China? Because they have elections, its a complete democracy right.

does justice always win out? Putin and Medvedev are steering Russia dangerously close to a single dominant government party by always arresting their opposition like Gary Kasparov. Venuezuela shifting to a dictatorship, just called a different name? Abkhazia and Ossetia seceding from Georgia and only claims Russia for international backing? look if we don't ever have a situation like Black Hawk Down, fine whatever. But sorry if I believe Syria is wrong for assassinating the democratically elected Prime Minister of Lebanon and think our position with Syria is right and recognizing them as terrorist sponsors for supporting the militant group Hezbollah. sorry if I don't believe the Dictator Robert Mugabe is a great ruler of Zimbabwe after also giving efficient farmland to ethnic Africans ruining their food supply and destroying their economy. sorry if I think Mugabe should share his power with democraticalyl elected Morgan Tsvangirai.

geriatric1991 · Senior Member

first off, please dont apologize for your views even if you are being sarcastic. its over dramatic. and i dont get why you were talking about zimbabwe. what do they have to do with the US in the middle east? anyway my reasoning for thinking that the US should mind its own business is so that we can stop being in the terrorists cross hairs and i think i our presence in the middle east is just fueling the fire and its making for more unrest. we should not have this sense like we need to fix the worlds problems. we cant do it and i think the world would be much better off if we were less of an "intruder" if you will. i dont see why so many americans feel this responsibility to go and try to right the worlds wrongs. i think it is possible that americans are proud about being such a world super power and i think thats a shame that so many americans and middle easterns and everyone involved has to die or be terrorized because of american pridefulness. it just is saddening that we dont use our power in a more constructive less violent manner like donating food to places in need or sending hospital supplies or something. that is something that i would support.

and about the rising power of putin and the venezuelan government. there will always be someone or some country that is trying to get into the international spotlight and try to make its name known as an international power but we only fuel the flames and give them purpose when we react to them with sanctions or whatever the reaction maybe. the bottom line is the US needs to play a more passive role in world affairs. and after this entry i dont believe i have anymore to say on the issue. it is obvious that im just talking to myself about the issue and that is silly. but i will be sure to post something if i do have anything else to add. so thank you for the debate, i always enjoy a sharing of ideas and i also enjoyed hearing what the opposing side had to say on the topic. but tune in next week when i post something about another important and controversial issue!!! to be continued...

-- Edited by geriatric1991 on Wednesday 25th of March 2009 01:08:35 PM

Bonemail-(Christophe K) · Senior Member

geriatric1991 wrote:

...tune in next week when i post something about immigration!!! to be continued...

SHHHHH! Don't bring up the I word!

Oh and I will respond with a real post tommorow I am just to tired right now :)

Luis777 · Senior Member

he can try to help but its not our problem and other countries shouldnt expect us to go and always bail out every country that needs help